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Location:Texas, USA Naturalized US Citizen of Irish extract -   Fixed Wing and Helo trucker.Interests: "The Absurdity of Man". I am a proud supporter of Blarney, Nonsense, and Hooey. I enjoy being a chopper jockey, and trying to figure the world, people and belief systems out. I'm just not very good at it, so it keeps me real busy. I scribble, blog, run this website, mess with rental houses, ride motorbikes, and read as much as I can. I went solo 44 years ago, and I like to say I'm gonna get me a real job one day. When I grow up. ("but not just yet, Lord, not just yet") For my aviation scribbles see www.chopperstories.com.... enjoy! I wish you Peace in your Life. May you always walk with the sun on your face, and a breeze ruffling your hair. And may you cherish a quiet wonder for our awesome Universe. Life isn't always good. But it is always fascinating. Never quit.
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Comment on Nicole Hellene's "On being an angry Atheist"
Comment on Nicole Hellene's "On being an angry Atheist"


"Praise" by jynmeyer

(It seems that the size of any 'comment' is limited, and the software wouldn't allow my entry. I'm therefore just posting it in this format!)

Quote from Alister Flik on Thursday, July 23, 2009 at 19:05:07
I honestly don't see anything logical in the attempts to prove the existence, or lack there of, of anything supernatural. It's illogical to use natural means to prove the supernatural. So anyone who can say, definitively that they have such proof has not really examined their own doubts. My point isn't that we shouldn't try and find the Truth in there somewhere...but to approach each other in humility, because we're all in the same boat: any statement about the existence of God is based on faith; whether it is a statement for, or against the existence of God.


Um.
1) "I honestly don't see anything logical in the attempts to prove the existence, or lack there of, of anything supernatural."
A lot hinges on the choice of that verb 'prove'. Einstein I believe spent the second half of his life trying to pretty well do that.
No, you can't 'prove' it, in the sense of cold physics or chemistry.
(Frankly, it would be a rather boring old God if we could reproduce the dude in a test tube, eh?)
How-ever... I see it as remarkably logical (and interesting) to examine the many 'clues', 'pointers', and 'intuitive gut feelings', that collectively lead many millions of people (including myself) to most seriously postulate the possibility of the Existence of a Supreme being.
2) "It's illogical to use natural means to prove the supernatural."
Yesss... how-ever... 'natural means' (the Bible,the Dead Sea scrolls, the fact that many unexpected archeological discoveries have tended to confirm Biblical truth, not negate it), etc, etc...all this does not 'prove' the Supernatural,but it sure does strongly suggest that we are not delusional, and wasting our valuable time and energy on this fascinating quest.
3) "So anyone who can say, definitively that they have such proof has not really examined their own doubts."
So many churches discourage doubt. They forbid doubt. They ostracize doubt. As for the person who has doubts... the quickest way to not be the flavor of the Bible study group is to express doubts. You might as well admit to gambling or extramarital sex...Smile
I honestly think doubt is perfectly natural, perfectly healthy, perfectly 'rational', and if anything, should even be encouraged. I've met too many very shallow Christians (I think... I know, me very judgmental, judgmental, but... tough!) who were terrified of doubt, or ANY discussion. I've met pastors like that! I used to love rattling the cage, just to see what transpired. Some were obsessed about being 'saved', had 'accepted Jesus into their lives',(what ever that exactly means, eh?) and were 'clinging' to that 'faith' with a teeth clenching, non-thinking, non-doubting determination that (depending on your point of view) was either admirable, touching, or pathetic.
4) "My point isn't that we shouldn't try and find the Truth in there somewhere..."
Maybe I am missing your point here, but my instinct is to chuckle mischievously and irreverently, and remark:


"Jumping child" by jynmeyer

"Of course we should! It's a fascinating journey! Imagine there IS a God! What kind of bike does he ride?? Does he like Heavy Metal? Has he got a sense of humor? Does he laugh a lot? What does he think of me?
Why is he waiting so long, and putting up with so much BS? Why doesn't He just come down and kick some ass??"
5)"but to approach each other in humility, because we're all in the same boat:"
Absolutely. Tolerance and compassion. (Except for those damn bozos driving by and playing their boom-boxes at three in the morning.)Grin
6)"any statement about the existence of God is based on faith; whether it is a statement for, or against the existence of God."

I raise my eyebrows...
Faith enters into it, for sure. Big time. But it's not a blind, unreasoning, unthinking, non-combative, non discerning faith. It can be a faith based very much on facts, reading, books, historical events, people you've met, people who inspired you, life's experiences... etc.
So to say that any statement about the existence of God is based (purely?) on faith... ah-ah! Don't agree.
At some stage.... the final hurdle will be a leap of faith. But that leap may not be across nearly as big a canyon as one might think.
Depending... on who you've met, who you've talked to, who you've read, and your own, private, quiet, 'walk with God'.

As for the humility, Alister. Thank you, but to be honest:
It's easy to be humble, (and cautious!) when you have screwed up as often as I have, especially when you've been previously utterly convinced of your own wisdom and insight, and subsequently been proven quite hilariously and spectacularly wrong. One day, you're the driver in charge, the next day...



I refer to judgment calls I have made in past dealings with people, in business, and in career.
If I'm humble, it's because I've learned (maybe)(eventually) that I don't know it all. Imagine....! I may even not know much at all. Which is sobering, because there was definitely a stage in my life I thought I was reasonably, errrr.... brilliant!
Life does that to you. But after the knocks, the bitter disappointments, the maddening frustrations, you look back, and somehow or another, it DOES all make sense. There is a thread of development, of growth, and life has been, and is, a terrific adventure. I wouldn't miss a second of it.

Sorry about the ramble, but I hope this makes a little bit of sense?
Errr....Nicole? Hope you don't mind us hijacking your 'comments' do ya?
Laughing


Last edited by Francis Meyrick on August 1, 2009, 2:13 pm
We little humans, hurtling through the Universe on our tiny, pale blue dot, will find few answers to Life's great mysteries. But we should at least find many of the questions. To write is to ask. To seek. To grope. With humility, and humor. Peace.
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