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Location:Texas, USA Naturalized US Citizen of Irish extract -   Fixed Wing and Helo trucker.Interests: "The Absurdity of Man". I am a proud supporter of Blarney, Nonsense, and Hooey. I enjoy being a chopper jockey, and trying to figure the world, people and belief systems out. I'm just not very good at it, so it keeps me real busy. I scribble, blog, run this website, mess with rental houses, ride motorbikes, and read as much as I can. I went solo 44 years ago, and I like to say I'm gonna get me a real job one day. When I grow up. ("but not just yet, Lord, not just yet") For my aviation scribbles see www.chopperstories.com.... enjoy! I wish you Peace in your Life. May you always walk with the sun on your face, and a breeze ruffling your hair. And may you cherish a quiet wonder for our awesome Universe. Life isn't always good. But it is always fascinating. Never quit.
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Open Discussion Question/Issue 1-2



Open discussion

Question/Issue  1-2

"Are we opposing ALL Muslims or are we only opposing Fundamental Muslims"      2/21/2016   Question/issue posed by a supporter on FB "Pegida (UK)"            


The following exchange recently took place on the 'Pegida' Facebook page. It's a fundamental issue, and it needs to be patiently addressed, and worked through.

Brett Cool   it is not helpful to keep saying that they are not against muslims just Islam -- without muslims there would be no Islam . one can not exist without the other !!

Julia Southam  to put simply then they are against the ideology if Islam NOT the people themselves without Islam there would be No Muslims

Colin Stubbs Fact is you can't "get rid" of Muslims, it's the ones who want to exploit the extremes of their faith that are the problem.all Muslims need to acknowledge that parts of the Koran have no place in western (modern ) society.were all going to have to work together to sort it out.

Julia Southam those that want out of Islam need support

Brett Cool we can support them to get out of our country -- we were never even asked if we would consent to this vile religion being allowed in the UK! we were never asked to agree that millions of muslims can live in the uk ! THESE THINGS WERE IMPOSED ON US !!
we need democracy back -- referendum now - ban Islam ! And encourage the muslims to leave by stopping all social security and housing benefits -- banning them from political appointments - and so on - these are the real policies we need -- All the rest is dancing round the edges and will not give us what we want -- an end to islam and , safety for our children from muslim rape gangs- and security for us all from terror plots !


Francis Meyrick @ Brett Cool. Okay, you touched on a fundamental point, we are gonna have to hash out. The term "Muslim" is very all encompassing. What does it mean? Well, if you rant against "ALL Muslims" you alienate many people who do NOT even remotely share the radical off-with-their-head Islam-will-rule and Muhammad-was-the-perfect-man full on raw manure. They just have to trace origins and family to kinda, sorta, Muslim origins. That's why I clearly and loudly propose to be super cautious to condemn "ALL Muslims". FUndamental, FUzzy beard, 7th century primtives I call FUZLIMS. I believe that many kinda, sorta, "Muslims" are most uncomfortable with radical-screamer-islam, and could be enlisted to help in exposing (and fighting) the NAZI types who use their 'religion' as a disguised battle cry and as football team colors. Provided, you don't make THEM feel threatened. That's how I see it. Does that make sense? The similarity between Nazi-ism and Fuzlim-ism is striking. Remember the pageantry when they burned that Jordanian pilot to death? How many non-Fuzlim Muslims were just as SICKENED by that as we were? The cage and the banners, the music and the pomp?

Francis Meyrick @Julia Southam I agree, and a lot of young people ARE out of Islam, and just want to enjoy life and be happy. I see no sense in alienating them by fulminating against "All Muslims".

Brett Cool are you trying to say that not all muslims have Mohammed as their prophet and therefore are against his actions ?? that is a non-starter just like saying Christians do not have Jesus as the founder of Christianity ! i do not care which muslims think this that or the other -- I Do think our own people come first -- why should we DIE so that they can be here ! NO !

Colin Stubbs Brett,the world is not black and white,,theres a lot of gray there will be muslims who wang to keep there faith but also disagree with some of islams barbaric teachings,i believe they should or could do more to distance themselves from that part of it, BUT you just cant tar them all with that brush,many muslims have been here decades their lives are here and contribute to modern britain.we need to work together its never going to be just us and them,thats the truth of lt mate.

Brett Cool Colin Stubbs i think you need to re-think your ideas.-----
all Muslims have Mohammed as their prophet , their role model , their perfect person .. ALL Muslims !!
ALL Muslims have a man who was a child rapist and mass murderer as their role model and perfect person !!

Let me know when the Muslims say, " MOHAMMED WAS AN EVIL MAN. "

++++++++++++

Okay, so here is an issue we have to face. In the 'moderate' 'Dove' Pegida ranks we have people like Colin Stubbs, Julie Southam and others, and at the other end we have this line of reasoning, the hard-liners 'Hawks', well expressed by Brett Cool.
I seem to see the same policy differences emerging in Germany's Pegida Movement. So how to moderate this discussion?

1)   First off, in any political movement, there is room for differences. Many organizations have both 'Doves' and 'Hawks' under the same umbrella.  Sometimes they get along better than at other times, or concerning other issues. So I would see this as a fundamental issue, but not a 'split' issue. Both sides hopefully can still march together, while respecting one another's differences. Ongoing discussion is good.

2)  Brett Cool's statement. I quote it below:

Brett Cool are you trying to say that not all muslims have Mohammed as their prophet and therefore are against his actions ?? that is a non-starter just like saying Christians do not have Jesus as the founder of Christianity ! i do not care which muslims think this that or the other -- I Do think our own people come first -- why should we DIE so that they can be here ! NO !



He expresses himself clearly here. But hold on a second? Are we seriously going to define 'Muslims' as ALL acknowledging 7th century Mohammed as the "perfect Man" whose wonderful example on how to treat women, children, non-believers and booty, not to mention his chummy relationship with arch angels and God/Allah, has to be the only guide on how to live in the 21st century?  If you define 'Muslim' in that narrow sense, then you have to reciprocate and define ALL Christians as believing implicitly that:

1) Jesus Christ was the Son of God,
2) who died,
3) to atone/make up for our sins
4) was buried,
5)  and resurrected on the third day.
6)  And that the ONLY way to 'Salvation' is 'through Jesus',
7)  and that everybody else is flat out wrong, 'doomed' and going to 'hell'.
8) And that these facts should loom large in your thinking and actions every day.

Is that the case?
Or would it be perhaps more truthful to say that the word 'Christian' undoubtedly DOES mean that to many hundreds of millions of believers, but that to many more, it is a much more vague term. That kinda/sorta descend from a Christian tradition, maybe very religious grandparents and/or parents, but who have softened that traditional fundamental Christian stand? A little bit or a big bit?
I'm ah-thinking so. In the recent Civil War in Northern Ireland, both sides were nominally 'Christian' (Catholics versus Protestants), but what percentage of the involved parties would unhesitatingly agree and endorse all eight points above? Nowhere near 100%.  Probably less than 50%. Maybe a lot less than that. There is a strong element of 'tradition' that people follow. The faith and ceremony and rituals of their forefathers. But the present generation, although it includes many hundreds of millions of fundamentalists, also includes at least the same number (or more) of people who have softened their attitudes. I'm not expressing judgement here, whether they are right or wrong, just pointing out what I believe to be a fact.

       You can probably see where I am going with this. What's good for the Goose, is good for the Gander. If you want to throw out/eject 'all Muslims' and ban them from political office, etc, then you will be targeting a huge group of folk who truthfully shudder as much as we do when it comes to screaming Islamic fundamentalism. Check out the continuing targeted assassinations in Bangladesh, against free thinking bloggers. People like Avijit Roy and Niloy Neel. Hacked to death. Gruesome stuff.   
I Googled "assassination of bloggers in the Muslim World"
Here are some links to articles, whose headlines alone speak volumes:

Bangladesh blogger Niloy Neel hacked to death in Dhaka

The Hit List - The New Yorker

Fourth Secular Bangladesh blogger hacked to Death

Bangladesh blogger killed by machete gang had asked for police protection

Netizen report: Are blogger assassinations becoming routine in Bangladesh?

There are many gentle people of that mellow, free-thinking persuasion in Britain today. They just want to get on, and live their lives in peace. Do you want to label them all as 'Muslim' and seek to eject them all? In truth, hate screaming Muslim extremist hardliners are a source of embarrassment (not to mention understandable fear) to many of these moderate 'Muslims' or 'former Muslims' or even 'reformer Muslims'.  The last thing they want is to get caught up in a non-discerning and sweeping anti-Islam rage in Western Europe.  
To alienate everybody who 'looks Muslim' is to drive many potential allies straight into the arms of the delighted, grinning Fundamentalist 'Fuzlims'.  And they DO believe in all the good (and bloody) stuff.
For a longer look at "Islamic Fundamentalism", here is a link to an in depth article in Wikipedia. Despite the massively funded window dressing (still) about "Islam is a religion of peace" (backed by all sorts of emotional movie stars and assorted gushing glitterati) and despite the huge investment of money, time and energy into presenting the opponents of Islam as mindless, classless "Islamophobes", the continuing actions of the fundamentalist Islamic hardliners (and there's a lot of them) give huge cause for concern.  Rabid intolerance and a declared end goal of introducing Shariah Law in every country in Western Europe, by force if necessary, is a likely recipe for disaster. And tragedy.

      So in conclusion, I would suggest for consideration that there is much truth in this post above:

Colin Stubbs Brett,the world is not black and white,,theres a lot of gray there will be muslims who want to keep there faith but also disagree with some of islams barbaric teachings,i believe they should or could do more to distance themselves from that part of it, BUT you just can't tar them all with that brush,many muslims have been here decades their lives are here and contribute to modern britain.we need to work together its never going to be just us and them,thats the truth of lt mate.

How all this will work out... if I knew that, with certainty, I'd be a modern day Nostradamus. I don't know. I have a suspicion what will happen in the next two decades, and it's scary, but that's another discussion.
For now, I would just respectfully add to the discussion a sincere caution to 'tar them all with the same brush'.

It seems counter intuitive, and counter productive, to drive mellow 'Modernists' from Islamic descent straight BACK into the arms of the grinning, raging Fundamentalist 'Fruit Cake' 'Fuzlims'. Some of whom are stockpiling weapons in Europe (e.g. Molenbeek, Brussels) and planning (and promising) the all conquering, New Pan European Caliphate.

To pretend that isn't happening is truly worthy of the ostrich, and the Dodo.

I hope... saner, more rational minds will prevail. But I'm sorry to say I think it will come to a nasty fight at some stage.

                                      'Peace'   Speaking
                                                  
                                                 Francis Meyrick




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Last edited by Francis Meyrick on February 22, 2016, 8:20 am
We little humans, hurtling through the Universe on our tiny, pale blue dot, will find few answers to Life's great mysteries. But we should at least find many of the questions. To write is to ask. To seek. To grope. With humility, and humor. Peace.
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